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I would love it if NVIDIA embraced DX10.1 and tessellation, but to be honest those features aren't going to matter much if only AMD supports them. NVIDIA's (still) dominant market share and TWIMTBP will make sure of that.

Why would the shader clocks be so much higher? G92b actually decreased the shaderclock/coreclock ratio a bit...

Furthermore, I don't necessarily agree that the ALUs are limiting GT200. We shall see

I think that what is going on here is bad in the long run. ATI isn't making nearly the amount of profits that they should be. They are probably kicking themselves learning that they could have easily tacked on $50+ on all their 4xxx series cards. Hell even tack $100 onto the 4870 and you still got a notably better bang for your buck cards than the GTX 280 was at launch day. Even now @ $400 the 4870 would sell very well.
Maybe they didn't have enough faith in their own product?

Of course, it is too late to up the price without everybody throwing a hissy fit. Now they need to keep trying to manufacture as cheap as possible, and sell a ton. And even though $300 is a good deal to many of us for a higher end card, that is still to expensive for the masses of budget gamers. As is $200 for many. Then, as far as under $200 mid-range goes, I see all these great 8 series cards now dropping into the true budget gamers price range, such as the 8800GT.

And considering the 20 months of great press the 8 series has had, I know a lot of people who have or want to get their meathooks on these once unaffordable higher end gpu's.
We do need to realize that even $200 is too much for many people. And that has a huge effect on the market.

Also, unlike what some say I think this is the most amazing time for consumers. I've mentioned this before, but let's think back just mere weeks when an 8800 Ultra still had a $500+ price tag, amazing since the 8 series debuted in '06!
Even though everybody and their mother was more than happy to spend $500-ish for Nv's previous offerings, people are not throwing fits because the new flagship card, which by the way blows the doors off the Ultra, isn't $300!
Does anybody understand economics? Deflation? Business in general?

It was ATI that screwed the pooch here. They single handedly have brought their own and Nv profits to a screeching halt. For what? Just to have bragging rights for a part of a gpu generation?
That is what it is. ATI was willing to do anything just to win a round, even if it mean charging only $300 for a card like the 4870, which as I said still would have been snatched up on lauch day even if it was $450 or $500, considering the GTX 280 was $650.

If people really understood this industry, they wouldn't be complaining about Nv's "high prices". Rather they should be complaining about ATI's low prices (if you can step outside of the consumer role for a second). Again, considering that Nv's previous flagships (8 series GTX/Ultra, even GX2) were at or over that $500 range (or well over that at launch), it completely would have made sense for Nv to ask $550 - $600 for the GTX 280, which is where prices would have likely normally been about now if they weren't forced to lower them to $500 or less.

There is NO doubt that we are seeing deflation here, considering I just bought nearly the best factory OC'ed GTX 280 for $460, just a couple weeks after launch.
Less than I paid for my 8800 GTX KO a year+ after launch.

Nice to see low prices, but because of what ATI did, jacking their own prices down incredibly low, they forced Nv to do the same. In the end, this of course really benefits the consumers now, but will likely hurt both ATI & Nv down the road. Neither of them will end up making the profits that they could have, or should have. Which in the long run only hurts us, the consumer. It could mean that technology we would have seen next year won't be seen for a couple years or more, if at all.

I hate to see competition deflate the entire gpu market rather than inflate it. Better yet I would have liked to see a healthy consistency in high end gpu prices, which is good for everybody. People think something good will somehow come out of all this for the gpu market in general. I just don't see it. No I don't think the market will choke to death, but if it does become stagnant for a while, and we don't see the leaps in technology that we expect, then likely look to this time period right now as the reason.

ATI didn't release great cards at great prices "just to have bragging rights." They needed more market share, and that's exactly what they're getting.

And what makes you think their margins are so bad? Especially compared to the $160 8800GTs and $200 9800GTXs?

And whos paying 200 for a 4850? @ homerdog, I was refering to DX11, that has tessalation and DX10.1 in it. So, like I said, if nVidia doesnt get in line with ATI and catch up, theyll really be hurting. You can bet Larrabee will have them. Note I said next gen, not die shrink

^Okay, I must have misunderstood you

Well, if they dont, we will see a DX10 debacle again, tho this time, itll be ATI who has the HW, and nVidia will be taking the backseat

At the rate we're seeing DX10 games released, I'd say DX11 support will be an important issue around 2015 . So long as Microsoft refuse to release DX10 for XP, most games will be DX9 with optional DX10 for at least another couple of years.

That said, as someone who doesn't change graphics card every year, I do hope that nvidia have 10.1 support in their next generation of hardware so it will at least run games when they eventually start using it.

And as I said, if they dont, theyll be looking on the outside looking in. Look what happened with the DX10 debacle. And DX11 isnt a need a new OS thing. There may be a few people still using XP then, but itll be few, so even DX10 will be the norm

*edit* Nvm, started my own thread

I still think the back and forth competition between ATi and Nvidia is killing the consumer.

I say this... knowing full well how it hurts to buy a GTX 280 and have a significant price drop happen before I even have the card in my cold dead hands.

I know I wont be doing that again. I will wait for the smoke to clear the next time I buy a new generation card.

I know cards drop in price... as does all technology... but to see such a severe price cut like that hurts.... Twice as much when you realize that you have just bought an expensive card that barely clears first place.

THIS WAS A PRICE CUT, within a unreasonable period of time. The card is still new FFS.

I'm just saying... release your new generation of cards with a fairly fixed price... at the same time... so the bloody consumer doesnt have to play this game of russian bloody roulette... trying to guess which card is going to be the premium card for the companies new line of cards.


Sorry... if I am being unreasonable and naive.
But given the drop in computer games... the economy .... consumer spending

I think Nvidia is going to learn very quickly what 'demand' is all about.

You're being unreasonable and naive

^^ he's entitled to his opinion, just like you are yours, don't put him down cuz of that

How is it going to hurt them? Nvidia managed to get DX10.1 support removed from a released TWIMTBP game. Microsoft isn't supporting AMD/ATI saying something along the line that 10.1 isn't important because DX11's on the way with the next OS.

We're talking about a company that stayed on top financially with the FX series, for heaven's sake. Nvidia knows it's business, even when they fudge the tech. That's why I hope they've picked a fight with Intel that they cannot win.

ATI's always innovated and had the best image quality and best tech. AMD's tried hard to catch up and design good CPU's. Intel's number one even when they have lousy tech and Nvidia fudges drives and strongarms major developers like Ubisoft to ensure that nothing remains in a game to prevent it from being played slightly better on Nvidia gear.

AMD will always be second best on the desktop, and ATI will always be second in the market. I don't doubt Nvidia will survive, but I hope they thrive in third place alongside Via. That's what they deserve with their recent hijinks.

As for market deflation, get real guys. It's economies of scale. As people who own PC's get tired of Intel IGP's, they first consider cheap add in cards, then realize those cards don't play games. They can either migrate to consoles and live with the same quality games until new hardware arrives, or they can take the plunge and learn about gaming cards and the power supplies that support them.

I want cheap high end. It can happen in such a way that everyone can make profits. The $449 I spent on my 3870x2 was the most I'd spent ever for a card (prior to that it was $299 for an AIW Radeon 9800 Pro). I decided that I didn't want a new Xbox 360 or a PS3. I wanted a better than average gaming PC. Otherwise, I'd have replaced the X1650 Pro with a 3850.

Now, a casual gamer can get the power of my card with a 4850 for less than $200, and they can do even better at $300 with a 4870. As long as enough of them buy, and yields are good, then ATI profits.

It's Nvidia that has to worry, as their yields aren't so good. So, learn economics all you Nvidia fans who think that the only way a company makes a profit is to sell a $600 card to guys like yourselves. Power to the gamers at yesterday's low to midrange prices is the revolution I'm seeing now.

Because if they dont, then nVidia wont be supporting DX11, in its entirety. No sane person would buy a card that doesnt support the latest DX model. Im saying next gen, not the G200, its way to late for this gen. DX11 is to hopefully be released late 09, so theres no way nVidia can come in with 2 new gens by then. It just seems theyre so far behind, but thats their decision

Yes, their decision, but the point I'm trying to make is that they've encouraged everyone else to follow suit. The horrid TWIMTBP marketing agreement, regardless of what changes hands, is the reason DX10.1 isn't being supported.

If it was, then maybe more gamers would upgrade to Vista? Microsoft should push Vista for gamers more, not just against Apple. Yet, because Microsoft prefers gamers go over to their console, they just won't do it.

Right now, Nvidia has a big possee who follows along and agrees that they have the best bling. Microsoft, Ubisoft, and how many other developers who won't support DX10.1?

Unless AMD's market share improves greatly, we won't see that changing anytime soon. So, maybe Nvidia made the "right" decision after all, however unethical?

@ ashkon52:

Explain how competition between ATI and Nvidia resulting in lower prices for the consumer is bad for the consumer. Sure someone might be sore that he bought a 280 at $650, but in the aggregate more people will have access to better graphics technology at a lower price. Why is this bad?

"I know I wont be doing that again. I will wait for the smoke to clear the next time I buy a new generation card." No offense, but you should have already known this because this is what happens every time for a new launch, albeit not so quickly.

"THIS WAS A PRICE CUT, within a unreasonable period of time. The card is still new FFS." Why is this bad?

I'm really not trying to show you up or call you out. I just want to know the logic behind your opinions.

Well, that was the way it was played then. Things have changed. You have the resurgance of ATI and the coming of Larrabee. Those 2 things changed the market drastically, and will have more and more influence as time goes by. You can bet Larrabee will adopt all the latest and greatest besides bringing a few things with it. And Intel ultimately has more pull than nVidia, so like I said, nVidia will have to get in line. Not supporting was advantagious for nVidia at the time, but times have changed