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AMD's Future Chips & SoC's: News, Info & Rumours.

This thread is for any news, speculation or rumours on AMD's Future Chips. Raven Ridge, Naples, Zen+ & SoC's.

Please stick to TomsHardware rules and conduct, no personnel attacks please.
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/20984-9-read-first?_ga=1.8489468.890824788.1487294553

Updated 20/4/2017...
According to these articles Intel is moving it's CPU Roadmap forward !
This if true looks like it's a direct result of pressure from AMD:
http://hexus.net/tech/news/cpu/104761-intel-hastens-cpu-platform-updates-due-amd-pressure/


Meanwhile, AMD is planning to announce its top-end 16-core Ryzen processor and X399 platform in the third quarter to compete for the gaming market:
http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20170419PD207.html


Also check this out AMD buys wireless VR startup Nitero:
In a forward looking move AMD has bought this startup an are striving to achieve wireless VR.
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/techandscience/amd-buys-wireless-vr-startup-nitero/ar-BBzH0UB


Raven Ridge is sure to make some major waves as well, Ryzen and Vega should be a great combination. The next wave of AMD powered gaming laptops should be very impressive...

There's gonna be some next level graphics on those new console SoC's. This should also help encourage Dev's to start programming games to take advantage more thread's due to increased core count on console CPU's.. This will have dev's programming for 8 threads (at least that is) instead of four. The Xbox Scorpio will have 8 CPU core's which should help PC gaming as well, indirectly. As a lot of PC games are ported from consoles. An programming for more threads will become standard practice. This will be the push we need to finally move on from the age of the quad core CPU.

Also in the Data Center AMD only has about 1% market share, for now that is anyway. It would appear the only way is up from here !
If Naples turns out to be as big of a noise as Ryzen is, the server market is gonna be drastically changing and that market share is going to drastically improve. Even a small improvement here will make big changes to AMD's profit margins.. this is what's needed to keep the company alive and keep competition in the market place.
This is also AMD's best chance of clearing the company's outstanding debt and surviving in the long term.

AMD may be the underdog but they are pushing technology forward with CPU's with more core's an threads at cheaper prices and with API's like Vulken an Dx12 this is good news for the consumer.
Reply to jaymc
921 answers Last reply
More about amd naples server cpu info rumours
  1. If someone has gotten far enough into a system for the contents of the ram to be a concern, well there are other issues... But I suppose in a virtual environment it would be bad for an authorized user to be able to snoop at the memory of other VMs running on the same system. I don't believe static RAM is often used anywhere, let alone servers. Systems using solid state storage as memory is another matter, and that is likely encrypted through other means.

    AMD will have to get hardware contracts, and right now Intel has that market pretty well cornered for high end x86 servers. If the price is low enough, new facilities might opt for AMD, but existing infrastructure would probably stick with Intel due to existing commitments. AMD is still quite popular with research where cost is a concern over performance.
    Reply to Eximo
  2. They already have contracts with Google / Alibaba.. If they are a cheaper option than Intel.. with added built hardware security that Intel simply doesn't offer at this time..

    They will also soon be able to offer a full package.. I.e. Server CPU's and also GPU's which I'm sure will both come much cheaper than if purchased separately from Intel and Nvidia. This should encourage company's to make the change.

    Here's an article with some leaked benchmarks from our friends at wccftttch so as with the usual disclaimer, maybe don't take everything said as law:

    http://wccftech.com/amd-zen-naples-32-core-cpu-benchmarks-leaked/
    Reply to jaymc
  3. More info on Naples:
    http://wccftech.com/amd-zen-naples-server-cpu-vega-gpu-platform/

    An Raven Ridge:
    According to this article (which may not be 100% accurate) There will be a version made especially for notebooks that will not have any HBM memory.
    http://wccftech.com/amd-raven-ridge-apu-vega-zen-hbm-2017/
    Reply to jaymc
  4. Seems like some smart moves for placing themselves as an option at least.

    I wonder how Optane and FPGA onboard will affect company decisions.

    The APUs are mildly appealing, though at a certain point I would just want a mobile CPU with a discrete GPU.
    Reply to Eximo
  5. Naples is rumoured to be using a New Memory Interconnect from the Gen-Z Consortium, these are a non profit and open source organization.

    http://www.pcworld.com/article/3158919/servers/amd-talks-tough-as-it-drums-up-support-for-32-core-zen-server-chip.html

    And here's an article on the Gen-Z Consortium from Anandtech:

    http://www.anandtech.com/show/10751/gen-z-consortium-formed-developing-a-new-memory-interconnect

    "Any which way you cut it, it represents a lot of the industry, except one major player at least – Intel."

    AMD appears to be a member they are the first name on the list here...
    http://images.anandtech.com/doci/10751/Gen-Z%20Consortium%20Briefing%20Deck-2.png?_ga=1.27937275.654102032.1487992126
    Although they are not mentioned in the list of company's involved in the article on Anandtech.

    An I'd say the security in this Interconnect is probably the same hardware security that's built into Naples.

    It looks like everyone is teaming up here, well except Intel that is of course.
    Reply to jaymc
  6. Is there a way to change the thread type to something that doesn't show the "pick as solution" thingy?

    Cheers!

    PS: Another shameless tracking post!
    Reply to Yuka
  7. Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. (AMD) Announces Collaboration with Microsoft (MSFT) to Advance Open Source Cloud Hardware:

    https://www.smarteranalyst.com/2017/03/08/advanced-micro-devices-inc-amd-announces-collaboration-microsoft-advance-open-source-cloud-hardware/
    Reply to jaymc
  8. Forrest Norrod, senior vice president and general manager of the Enterprise, Embedded, and Semi-Custom group at AMD:

    "In some ways, the push for both ARM and Power is our fault. AMD stopped having credible, high performance, alternative processors to Intel. If we show up again with a high performance, high quality proc, there is such a lower barrier to adoption of an alternative X86 than to a new architecture that I think it will be welcomed with open arms."

    “If you take a look at the performance that we will be able to span in the Intel two-socket space, and if you look at general integer performance levels, particularly on throughput, we think that on a SPECint_rate we will be able to match Intel on the highest bin Skylake part,” Norrod says. “Which I do not think they are expecting.”
    We do not think FP16 half precision floating point is supported on the Zen core, but then again, AMD has “Vega” GPUs for offloading math from its CPUs.

    Full article can be read here:
    https://www.nextplatform.com/2017/03/07/naples-opterons-give-amd-second-chance-servers/
    Reply to jaymc
  9. AMD Zen 2 Based CPU Family is Called Pinnacle Ridge – Successor To Summit Ridge Arrives on AM4 in Early 2018:
    http://wccftech.com/amd-pinnacle-ridge-cpu-zen-2-core/

    AMD Pinnacle Ridge CPUs and Raven Ridge APUs Detailed – High-Performance Pinnacle Ridge To Feature 8 Zen 2 Cores, Raven Ridge Comes With 4 Zen and 11 Vega GPU Cores:
    http://wccftech.com/amd-pinnacle-ridge-raven-ridge-processors-confirmed/
    Reply to jaymc
  10. jaymc said:
    Forrest Norrod, senior vice president and general manager of the Enterprise, Embedded, and Semi-Custom group at AMD:

    "In some ways, the push for both ARM and Power is our fault. AMD stopped having credible, high performance, alternative processors to Intel. If we show up again with a high performance, high quality proc, there is such a lower barrier to adoption of an alternative X86 than to a new architecture that I think it will be welcomed with open arms."

    “If you take a look at the performance that we will be able to span in the Intel two-socket space, and if you look at general integer performance levels, particularly on throughput, we think that on a SPECint_rate we will be able to match Intel on the highest bin Skylake part,” Norrod says. “Which I do not think they are expecting.”
    We do not think FP16 half precision floating point is supported on the Zen core, but then again, AMD has “Vega” GPUs for offloading math from its CPUs.

    Full article can be read here:
    https://www.nextplatform.com/2017/03/07/naples-opterons-give-amd-second-chance-servers/


    It is very funny that Norrod mentions ARM, because just a pair of days after that interview Microsoft announced that will start replacing its x86 servers by ARM servers, and then another other two big datacenters have announced will use ARM.

    I wonder who will use Naples, because up to now not a single design win has been announced.
    Reply to juanrga
  11. jaymc said:
    AMD Zen 2 Based CPU Family is Called Pinnacle Ridge – Successor To Summit Ridge Arrives on AM4 in Early 2018:
    http://wccftech.com/amd-pinnacle-ridge-cpu-zen-2-core/

    AMD Pinnacle Ridge CPUs and Raven Ridge APUs Detailed – High-Performance Pinnacle Ridge To Feature 8 Zen 2 Cores, Raven Ridge Comes With 4 Zen and 11 Vega GPU Cores:
    http://wccftech.com/amd-pinnacle-ridge-raven-ridge-processors-confirmed/


    WCFTECH is making stuff again. The official slides clearly mention that Pinnacle Ridge uses Zen cores, not Zen2.

    Reply to juanrga
  12. juanrga said:
    jaymc said:
    AMD Zen 2 Based CPU Family is Called Pinnacle Ridge – Successor To Summit Ridge Arrives on AM4 in Early 2018:
    http://wccftech.com/amd-pinnacle-ridge-cpu-zen-2-core/

    AMD Pinnacle Ridge CPUs and Raven Ridge APUs Detailed – High-Performance Pinnacle Ridge To Feature 8 Zen 2 Cores, Raven Ridge Comes With 4 Zen and 11 Vega GPU Cores:
    http://wccftech.com/amd-pinnacle-ridge-raven-ridge-processors-confirmed/


    WCFTECH is making stuff again. The official slides clearly mention that Pinnacle Ridge uses Zen cores, not Zen2.



    I think that might be a typo in the slide instead... Otherwise they would be the same exact product according to the slide?

    But yeah, it is WTFBBQTech we're talking about here... Not sure to be honest.

    Cheers!
    Reply to Yuka
  13. Yuka said:
    juanrga said:
    jaymc said:
    AMD Zen 2 Based CPU Family is Called Pinnacle Ridge – Successor To Summit Ridge Arrives on AM4 in Early 2018:
    http://wccftech.com/amd-pinnacle-ridge-cpu-zen-2-core/

    AMD Pinnacle Ridge CPUs and Raven Ridge APUs Detailed – High-Performance Pinnacle Ridge To Feature 8 Zen 2 Cores, Raven Ridge Comes With 4 Zen and 11 Vega GPU Cores:
    http://wccftech.com/amd-pinnacle-ridge-raven-ridge-processors-confirmed/


    WCFTECH is making stuff again. The official slides clearly mention that Pinnacle Ridge uses Zen cores, not Zen2.



    I think that might be a typo in the slide instead... Otherwise they would be the same exact product according to the slide?

    But yeah, it is WTFBBQTech we're talking about here... Not sure to be honest.


    Not a typo because other slides show the same: "Zen"



    So far like I know Pinnacle Ridge is just Summit Ridge with higher clocks. Somewhat as Richland was a higher clocked Trinity.
    Reply to juanrga
  14. juanrga said:
    Not a typo because other slides show the same: "Zen"



    So far like I know Pinnacle Ridge is just Summit Ridge with higher clocks. Somewhat as Richland was a higher clocked Trinity.


    That is a tad disappointing, but makes sense. I would imagine they'll just improve the lithography before Zen+.

    Cheers!
    Reply to Yuka
  15. It looks like this move by Microsoft is putting even more pressure on Intel without declaring all out war that is.. but still Microsoft porting its Windows Server operating system to the Qualcomm Centriq – a 64-bit ARM-compatible server-grade system-on-chip, is a declaration of war in itself and doesn't say much for relations between Microsoft and Intel:
    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/03/08/microsoft_windows_server_qualcomm/

    Furthermore Microsoft only recently announced an alliance with AMD...
    Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. (AMD) Announces Collaboration with Microsoft (MSFT) to Advance Open Source Cloud Hardware:
    https://www.smarteranalyst.com/2017/03/08/advanced-micro-devices-inc-amd-announces-collaboration-microsoft-advance-open-source-cloud-hardware/

    It does look like Microsoft is changing teams alright.. while they seem to be pretty clever in the sense of keeping in with everybody else, Qualcomm's ARM and to a lessor extent AMD !!

    One things for sure Intel is not invited to the party.. In fact they seem to be on everyone's naughty list..
    This how an ever does not mean that Naples or AMD will succeed in the Data Centers..
    But it does look like the time's they are a changing...

    I do think that AMD may be kept alive by such company's on purpose to keep Intel at bay (Samsung included who licensed Globol Foundries the 14lpp process an also SK Hynix springs to mind who seem's to be making sure AMD get HBM2 first, separate war I suppose) or until they are usurped from their position of power in the data center.. That's one thing that looks pretty clear at the moment.

    Also can't help thinking why Microsoft would make such a move (or moves even) that's bound to upset Intel considering the relationship they have when it comes to x86 an Windows sales.. Microsoft certainly don't seem worried about upsetting them... an all the while collaborating with their nemesis AMD (and ARM for that matter)..
    It certainly does look like the time's are changing alright. An Intel seem to be short on friends, for the moment that is anyway.
    Reply to jaymc
  16. jaymc said:

    [...]

    This is where the money is and this is AMD's best chance of clearing the company's outstanding debt and surviving in the long term.

    [...]


    If you bought stock in AMD last year you could be looking at %875+ returns right now. Bid averages have gone up and almost equal with asks prices. Just 1 cent difference, right now could still be an alright time to buy as a day trade option but I would be weary or hesitant to pay anything upwards of $13.00 - $13.50, but I think the stock still has some room to grow and If you can hold a stake I see positive returns in the intermediate to long term, I wish I had more to spend on its stock. I personally am selling my shares now to up my capitol though. But, also to consider, AMD really sucks as a long term holding with very little dividend yield to brag about.

    jaymc said:

    [...]

    It's something Intel quite simply hasn't got.. The actual ram in the server is encrypted, an the key to decode is stored on the server in question (prevents ram being hacked or even stolen from the machine, certain types of ram hold there info even with no power.. ie solid state I suppose)
    This is something Intel has nothing to compete with it and will should AMD an edge in the battle for server market share.

    [...]

    .
    I don't really know about the encryption. But, the ram on the other hand is probably made with silicone. Manufacturers are experimenting with the use of newer technologies as we speak to create even smaller and faster ram than is possible with the current manufacturing processes of DIMM and SO-DIMM but in these rams that we still use today the design is usually a purpose built transistor composed of a variety of silicone elastomers. It is really on a matter of slightly changing the order and configuration of a few components to give your ram the ability to store charges without active electricity present for the circuitry to consume. Silicone is a semi-conductor and the unique properties of such is that when arranged properly a silicone circuit can function as a transistor or capacitor or both at the same time, usually each physical byte is designed with a switch and bait to re-write each byte as it is accessed and output is drawn from the circuit. Technically speaking this is done by creating a loop at each byte that loops the output of the gate once it is open back through the transistor from which was being read, once this happens, the transistor gets stuck holding the charge again until it is either accessed again or written over. If it is written over by a zero it is drained. So, even if the power if removed from the ram at this point it really doesn't matter, the circuit will still hold the charge, unless over written or hardware, basic binary logic etc.
    Reply to saintsfan0990
  17. I heard they are requesting AMD for build hololens, you hear this?
    Reply to saintsfan0990
  18. saintsfan0990 said:
    I heard they are requesting AMD for build hololens, you hear this?


    I'm afraid I can't say I've heard that.. I read that Intel cancelled the Atom they were supposed to use for it. An that they may consider using ARM instead. But I haven't seen anything so far suggesting they have approached AMD.
    Reply to jaymc
  19. jaymc said:
    It looks like this move by Microsoft is putting even more pressure on Intel without declaring all out war that is.. but still Microsoft porting its Windows Server operating system to the Qualcomm Centriq – a 64-bit ARM-compatible server-grade system-on-chip, is a declaration of war in itself and doesn't say much for relations between Microsoft and Intel:
    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/03/08/microsoft_windows_server_qualcomm/

    Furthermore Microsoft only recently announced an alliance with AMD...
    Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. (AMD) Announces Collaboration with Microsoft (MSFT) to Advance Open Source Cloud Hardware:
    https://www.smarteranalyst.com/2017/03/08/advanced-micro-devices-inc-amd-announces-collaboration-microsoft-advance-open-source-cloud-hardware/

    It does look like Microsoft is changing teams alright.. while they seem to be pretty clever in the sense of keeping in with everybody else, Qualcomm's ARM and to a lessor extent AMD !!

    One things for sure Intel is not invited to the party.. In fact they seem to be on everyone's naughty list..
    This how an ever does not mean that Naples or AMD will succeed in the Data Centers..
    But it does look like the time's they are a changing...


    It is not only Qualcomm but Cavium as well. And Microsoft and other two big customers switching to ARM will only hurt Naples sales. It said it years ago: Naples will be crushed by both sides, x86 (Intel) and ARM... and it is already happening.

    Microsoft will continue giving support to x86, but what you say Intel is "not invited to the party" is plain wrong:

    Quote:
    The Project Olympus standard will support the next generation Intel Xeon processors (Skylake) and AMD's next-generation processor, which it has dubbed "Naples." There was also an announcement about NVIDIA and support for GPU-based processing, which is most often associated with artificial intelligence computations.


    Quote:
    Microsoft didn’t abandon Intel either, and they announced close collaboration with Intel as well. This will be not only for Intel’s general purpose CPUs, but also for Intel’s FPGA accelerators and Nervana support. Microsoft already has FPGAs in Azure, so adding them to Project Olympus is a no-brainer.


    http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/cracking-open/microsoft-project-olympus-sets-the-standard-for-future-cloud-hardware/

    http://www.anandtech.com/show/11187/microsoft-details-project-olympus-open-compute-standard
    Reply to juanrga
  20. Windows servers are a small fraction of the world. I wouldn't even consider them a threat to the ecosystem from any camp.

    Cheers!
    Reply to Yuka
  21. Wikipedia claims almost exactly 1/3 of web servers are Windows, seems a little high actually.

    My company is about 50/50 it seems, but I would say the big budget systems are running Linux or some enterprise flavor of Unix, and the rest are Microsoft servers or minor Application servers.

    But some other sources are definitely skewed by their clientele. Spiceworks, an open source ITSM/SAM/HAM tool has the Windows numbers over 80%.

    Several other sources claim Windows servers are still the majority.

    But I guess it really comes down to who is volunteering information.

    I would be curious if any of the cloud services even have such statistics.
    Reply to Eximo
  22. Eximo said:
    Wikipedia claims almost exactly 1/3 of web servers are Windows, seems a little high actually.

    My company is about 50/50 it seems, but I would say the big budget systems are running Linux or some enterprise flavor of Unix, and the rest are Microsoft servers or minor Application servers.

    But some other sources are definitely skewed by their clientele. Spiceworks, an open source ITSM/SAM/HAM tool has the Windows numbers over 80%.

    Several other sources claim Windows servers are still the majority.

    But I guess it really comes down to who is volunteering information.

    I would be curious if any of the cloud services even have such statistics.


    All companies have email servers that they need to host Outlook :D

    MS is like the perfect trojan when they sell their OS. If you want to use Office stuff, you *need* a Windows Server, or they won't cover you with their warranty. So yeah; most companies just use them for email server at worst and exchange servers at best. We have some running dotNET parsers, because they're useless for anything else XD

    Cheers! :P
    Reply to Yuka
  23. juanrga said:
    jaymc said:
    It looks like this move by Microsoft is putting even more pressure on Intel without declaring all out war that is.. but still Microsoft porting its Windows Server operating system to the Qualcomm Centriq – a 64-bit ARM-compatible server-grade system-on-chip, is a declaration of war in itself and doesn't say much for relations between Microsoft and Intel:
    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/03/08/microsoft_windows_server_qualcomm/

    Furthermore Microsoft only recently announced an alliance with AMD...
    Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. (AMD) Announces Collaboration with Microsoft (MSFT) to Advance Open Source Cloud Hardware:
    https://www.smarteranalyst.com/2017/03/08/advanced-micro-devices-inc-amd-announces-collaboration-microsoft-advance-open-source-cloud-hardware/

    It does look like Microsoft is changing teams alright.. while they seem to be pretty clever in the sense of keeping in with everybody else, Qualcomm's ARM and to a lessor extent AMD !!

    One things for sure Intel is not invited to the party.. In fact they seem to be on everyone's naughty list..
    This how an ever does not mean that Naples or AMD will succeed in the Data Centers..
    But it does look like the time's they are a changing...


    It is not only Qualcomm but Cavium as well. And Microsoft and other two big customers switching to ARM will only hurt Naples sales. It said it years ago: Naples will be crushed by both sides, x86 (Intel) and ARM... and it is already happening.

    Microsoft will continue giving support to x86, but what you say Intel is "not invited to the party" is plain wrong:

    Quote:
    The Project Olympus standard will support the next generation Intel Xeon processors (Skylake) and AMD's next-generation processor, which it has dubbed "Naples." There was also an announcement about NVIDIA and support for GPU-based processing, which is most often associated with artificial intelligence computations.


    Quote:
    Microsoft didn’t abandon Intel either, and they announced close collaboration with Intel as well. This will be not only for Intel’s general purpose CPUs, but also for Intel’s FPGA accelerators and Nervana support. Microsoft already has FPGAs in Azure, so adding them to Project Olympus is a no-brainer.


    http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/cracking-open/microsoft-project-olympus-sets-the-standard-for-future-cloud-hardware/

    http://www.anandtech.com/show/11187/microsoft-details-project-olympus-open-compute-standard


    Appreciate your input Juan and as always I'm not taking it lightly... But can I ask you with Microsoft developing Windows Server to run on ARM processors Qualcomm and Cavium is that not a major change in Microsoft's agenda... I've never known them to do something like this. Is this not going to look like a threat to Intel ?? An AMD to a lessor extent. They can announce projects with everyone if they want but this looks bad for x86... Especially Intel.. as they have majority of the market share in the data centers... Maybe ARM is the future as you say.. but Microsoft doing deals with Intel's biggest threats in the data centers has to be news ?

    "These ARM design are part of Microsoft’s next generation of server hardware, intended to cut operational costs. New hardware is being developed with a number of companies under the name Project Olympus. Other designs include systems running on AMD’s Naples processor, and on a variant of Intel’s own Skylake chips. Bloomberg reports that some of this new hardware will make its way into Microsoft’s data centers “later this year.” However, it’s not clear if this refers to the designs using ARM processors."

    It looks like they are trying to cut costs (by buying ARM instead of Xeons) and reduce market on Intel at the same time. Will they be selling this solution ? Does this not make them enemy's ?

    Cavium latest ARM chip is being made on 10nm process node... I believe they and Qualcomm are licensing the architecture.. does this mean that Intel or AMD can do the same ?

    It looks like Microsoft are ensuring their future in the Data Center.. But it also looks like they are putting pressure on Intel to drop prices and loosen their grip on the server market. As stated in Anandtech's article.

    While AMD's market share in the server market can only go up from where it is now, it looks like an attempt to push Intel's down. Along with their prices.
    Reply to jaymc
  24. Switching to ARM is more about handling lots of small jobs at very low power rather than using powerful cores to do single tasks or multi-task. So they aren't quite a one-one comparison.

    They'll both have their place. AMD even got into the ARM segment themselves some years back and failed spectacularly at adoption.
    Reply to Eximo
  25. Eximo said:
    Switching to ARM is more about handling lots of small jobs at very low power rather than using powerful cores to do single tasks or multi-task. So they aren't quite a one-one comparison.

    They'll both have their place. AMD even got into the ARM segment themselves some years back and failed spectacularly at adoption.


    For now.. But it seems ARM is getting stronger all the time. If anyone can license the architecture then why hasn't Intel or AMD done so ?
    Reply to jaymc
  26. jaymc said:
    juanrga said:
    jaymc said:
    It looks like this move by Microsoft is putting even more pressure on Intel without declaring all out war that is.. but still Microsoft porting its Windows Server operating system to the Qualcomm Centriq – a 64-bit ARM-compatible server-grade system-on-chip, is a declaration of war in itself and doesn't say much for relations between Microsoft and Intel:
    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/03/08/microsoft_windows_server_qualcomm/

    Furthermore Microsoft only recently announced an alliance with AMD...
    Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. (AMD) Announces Collaboration with Microsoft (MSFT) to Advance Open Source Cloud Hardware:
    https://www.smarteranalyst.com/2017/03/08/advanced-micro-devices-inc-amd-announces-collaboration-microsoft-advance-open-source-cloud-hardware/

    It does look like Microsoft is changing teams alright.. while they seem to be pretty clever in the sense of keeping in with everybody else, Qualcomm's ARM and to a lessor extent AMD !!

    One things for sure Intel is not invited to the party.. In fact they seem to be on everyone's naughty list..
    This how an ever does not mean that Naples or AMD will succeed in the Data Centers..
    But it does look like the time's they are a changing...


    It is not only Qualcomm but Cavium as well. And Microsoft and other two big customers switching to ARM will only hurt Naples sales. It said it years ago: Naples will be crushed by both sides, x86 (Intel) and ARM... and it is already happening.

    Microsoft will continue giving support to x86, but what you say Intel is "not invited to the party" is plain wrong:

    Quote:
    The Project Olympus standard will support the next generation Intel Xeon processors (Skylake) and AMD's next-generation processor, which it has dubbed "Naples." There was also an announcement about NVIDIA and support for GPU-based processing, which is most often associated with artificial intelligence computations.


    Quote:
    Microsoft didn’t abandon Intel either, and they announced close collaboration with Intel as well. This will be not only for Intel’s general purpose CPUs, but also for Intel’s FPGA accelerators and Nervana support. Microsoft already has FPGAs in Azure, so adding them to Project Olympus is a no-brainer.


    http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/cracking-open/microsoft-project-olympus-sets-the-standard-for-future-cloud-hardware/

    http://www.anandtech.com/show/11187/microsoft-details-project-olympus-open-compute-standard


    Appreciate your input Juan and as always I'm not taking it lightly... But can I ask you with Microsoft developing Windows Server to run on ARM processors Qualcomm and Cavium is that not a major change in Microsoft's agenda... I've never known them to do something like this. Is this not going to look like a threat to Intel ?? An AMD to a lessor extent. They can announce projects with everyone if they want but this looks bad for x86... Especially Intel.. as they have majority of the market share in the data centers... Maybe ARM is the future as you say.. but Microsoft doing deals with Intel's biggest threats in the data centers has to be news ?

    "These ARM design are part of Microsoft’s next generation of server hardware, intended to cut operational costs. New hardware is being developed with a number of companies under the name Project Olympus. Other designs include systems running on AMD’s Naples processor, and on a variant of Intel’s own Skylake chips. Bloomberg reports that some of this new hardware will make its way into Microsoft’s data centers “later this year.” However, it’s not clear if this refers to the designs using ARM processors."

    It looks like they are trying to cut costs (by buying ARM instead of Xeons) and reduce market on Intel at the same time. Will they be selling this solution ? Does this not make them enemy's ?

    Cavium latest ARM chip is being made on 10nm process node... I believe they and Qualcomm are licensing the architecture.. does this mean that Intel or AMD can do the same ?

    It looks like Microsoft are ensuring their future in the Data Center.. But it also looks like they are putting pressure on Intel to drop prices and loosen their grip on the server market. As stated in Anandtech's article.

    While AMD's market share in the server market can only go up from where it is now, it looks like an attempt to push Intel's down. Along with their prices.


    Wow! lot of questions!

    Yes, Microsoft switching to ARM is huge change in Microsoft's agenda. It just doesn't surprise me much because I have known for a while that they ported Windows server to ARM and tested it in-house. Recall how many years I have claiming that servers were going to switch away from x86 to ARMv8.

    Yes, it is a threat to both Intel and AMD, and also to other server companies like IBM or Sun/Oracle. Regarding Microsoft they have confirmed that >50% of their servers will be changed by ARM servers. This is a huge number of units and less opportunity for AMD or Intel to sell Naples and Xeons.

    Cavium uses 28nm. Qualcomm uses 10nm. Microsoft is porting the SO to those chips and also purchasing servers for their own datacenters. I don't understand your question about licensing.

    Intel and AMD can drop prices, but most costs in a datacenter are working costs like electricity bill and the ARM chips are more efficient.

    Don't sell the bear's fur before hunting it. Naples can increase AMD marketshare on datacenter or not. The more optimistic scenarios I saw predicted about 6% market share for Zen. But this was the past year with the Zen hype train at full speed and before all those recent datacenter announcements.

    Did you heard the recent rumor about new X399 platform from AMD? I have a 'theory' about that. Well, it is not a theory, but just a guess I cannot prove. I believe that new platform is in reality a failed SP4 microserver platform rebranded for HEDT.
    Reply to juanrga
  27. Eximo said:
    Switching to ARM is more about handling lots of small jobs at very low power rather than using powerful cores to do single tasks or multi-task. So they aren't quite a one-one comparison.


    There are cores that rivalry with best x86 chips on single-thread performance

    http://www.hpcuserforum.com/presentations/santafe2014/Broadcom%20Monday%20night.pdf

    And recall Jim Keller said that K12 was faster than Zen.

    Eximo said:
    They'll both have their place. AMD even got into the ARM segment themselves some years back and failed spectacularly at adoption.


    AMD Seattle failed because AMD delayed the product until it was DOA, because better SoCs from both Intel and ARM companies were available in the market. Also Seatle used phone cores and did target microservers, not big servers.
    Reply to juanrga
  28. @Jauan

    I believe Qualcomm an Cavium are licensing the Architecture for their ARMv8 from ARM holdings. My question was what to stop Intel or AMD doing same.. or would they not license it to them ?

    Also I notice there you said Jim keller said K12 is faster than Zen so does that mean AMd already has a viable ARM product.. how does it fair out in comparison to Qualcomm an Caviums products ?

    Sorry Haven't heard anything as of yet regarding x399 details...will have a look into it though.
    Reply to jaymc
  29. jaymc said:
    @Jauan

    I believe Qualcomm an Cavium are licensing the Architecture for their ARMv8 from ARM holdings. My question was what to stop Intel or AMD doing same.. or would they not license it to them ?

    Also I notice there you said Jim keller said K12 is faster than Zen so does that mean AMd already has a viable ARM product.. how does it fair out in comparison to Qualcomm an Caviums products ?

    Sorry Haven't heard anything as of yet regarding x399 details...will have a look into it though.


    ARMv8 is the ISA, just as x86 is the ISA. Any company that want to design its own 64bit ARM CPU has to license the ISA from ARM Holdings. Just as an any company that want to design its own x86 CPU would that have to license the x86 ISA from AMD and Intel, with the difference that neither AMD or Intel want to license the ISA because they don't want competition. Remember that during years Nvidia tried to get a x86 license to design its own CPUs.

    Jim Keller gave a talk in AMD Core Innovation Summit May 2014 where he mentioned the advantages of the ARMv8 ISA over the x86 ISA and he hinted how those advantages could be used to make K12 a better core than Zen. But so far as I know K12 was canceled by AMD and the reason for Keller's departure. AMD doesn't have any viable ARM product. All the eggs are in x86 with Naples.

    It is difficult to predict how Naples will perform compared to competition, specially when AMD doesn't give us basic details such as clocks. A well-informed source claims base clock of 1.9GHz and single core turbo 3.0GHz for Naples, but this is not still officially confirmed.

    Whereas we wait for details, we can use this trick: check how Skylake-EP, Centriq, ThunderX2, Vulcan, and XGene3 server designs have got customers and desing wins in the datacenter, whereas Naples didn't get any still. This can give us an idea of how competitive it is. Doesn't?

    The X399 platform seems confirmed. It is the old SP4 platform for workstations/microservers rebranded for desktop.

    The specs for SP4 were: single socket; 150W TDP; dual-die socket (MCM2); quad-channel (two channels per die); from 8C/16T up to 16C/32T; 2.4--2.8GHz.

    Since each ZP die cost about $500. This 16C CPU would cost about $1000.
    Reply to juanrga
  30. Leak on the 16c/32t Chip... it say's gaming issues have been Ironed out ?

    "The gaming issues that were causing the Ryzen AM4 CPUs to behave erratically to say the least have been ironed out. It's akin to a newer revision on a newer platform."
    http://www.overclock.net/t/1625803/anand-forum-amd-launching-x399-hedt-zen-platform-2h-2017

    Goes on to say that these chips with the "Ironed out" issues are new sillicone that will be used on all SKU's scaling all the way down the product line...

    I guess if you already have you one you wont be getting this fix.... It's good if true as they are changing it straight away instead of sticking to a flawed design until Zen2.
    Reply to jaymc
  31. The source for that has been promising us magic fixes since launch. He first said a BIOS update, then said a SMT patch, then said a W10 scheduler patch,...

    That same source is now posting in AT forums the nonsense that the RyZen chips in the market are "engineering samples" (sic), that everyone that purchased they are beta testers and that final silicon is coming soon.
    Reply to juanrga
  32. Intel has kept this one quiet, an it seem's to be in direct response to Naples, 32 core Xeon's:

    http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/32-core-intel-xeon-results-surface-in-geekbench.html
    Reply to jaymc
  33. This is so exciting and all I've done is enter my name! "ThreadRi"
    Reply to Eximo
  34. AMD is planning to announce its top-end 16-core Ryzen processor and X399 platform in the third quarter to compete for the gaming market according to this article:
    http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20170419PD207.html

    An check this out....
    AMD buys wireless VR startup Nitero
    https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/techandscience/amd-buys-wireless-vr-startup-nitero/ar-BBzH0UB
    AMD is striving to achieve wireless VR headsets in what seem's to be a very smart move.. They would be able to provide a full package as in CPU, GPU and Wireless VR chips that are designed in parallel to work seamlessly with eash other.. in the hope of doing away with big bulky an troublesome cables on VR headsets.
    Reply to jaymc
  35. "Inside the next Xbox: Project Scorpio tech revealed"

    Sporting an AMD 2.3ghz Jaguar 8 Core (4x4) SoC running 31% faster than the Xbox One's.. An also it will have a hardware Dx12 Chip that sits on front of the GPU an processes everything coming in from the CPU, This is Dx12 in hardware.. I've never heard of this before, this apparently halves the load on the CPU when it comes to rendering. A Dx12 chip ?..
    I presume this is made by AMD also in conjunction with MS (Dx12 is supposedly a copy of Vulken) ..
    Interesting stuff...
    As Far as I'm aware Dx12 is run in software on the PC an talks to the GPU from there...
    Can anyone shed some light on this, what is going on here with this Dx12 chip.?
    An can it be implemented on the PC ?

    What this mean's for PC's, well... it mean's all games that are being developed for the Xbox Scorpio will be developed for at least 8 cores an Dx12. I can only presume the PS5 will be taking a similar approach with more cores as well an maybe Vulken...
    This should get all the dev's used to programming for more threads an for Dx12 or Vulken across the board in the not too distant future... :D

    Check it out here:
    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-project-scorpio-tech-revealed

    An here:
    https://youtu.be/RE2hNrq1Zxs

    Jay
    Reply to jaymc
  36. A hardware processor built to specifically handle a low-level API? I wonder if they are just adding a co-processor so they don't have to change the underlying architecture. That way the new one performs better, but the exact same code will execute on the older hardware but run on the processor instead.
    Reply to Eximo
  37. As it turns out it's a dedicated Directx 12 "draw call processor"

    mitch074 has weighed in on this, in the Vega thread with this info...

    "What AMD and Microsoft did (AFAIKT) was improve the CPU's instruction decoder so that when a game makes use of DX12, the decoder catches DX12 calls and provides dedicated instructions and/or pipes draw calls directly to the GPU. This, I guess, sidesteps the need to decode the instruction in-CPU then route it to the GPU, instead the instruction decoder sends it to the GPU directly. This can easily save a dozen cycles or more per draw call."
    That sounds amazing, excellent stuff.. This is a forward looking move for sure.. Dx12 is capable of a record amount of draw calls compared to any of the previous directx API's.. An according to AMD in 2017 we will have 3 times the amount of Dx12 games developed and 3 times the amount of VR headsets sold.
    This certainly sounds like something that would benefit us on our graphics cards in the future.

    Edit: More info on this "GPU Command Processor" this is what MS is calling it:

    "What’s more interesting about the Scorpio console is that, according to Microsoft, it’s designed to incorporate basic, oft-used DirectX12 draw calls into the GPU command processor itself, potentially freeing up some processing power for devs."
    “It's the first time I'm aware of us ever doing something like this,” Gammill said. “We actually pulled some of the DX12 runtime components directly into the hardware. So basically, these high-frequency DX12 draw calls you'd normally call [to output a frame, for example] which would take up a lot of GPU and CPU cycles, now that that's baked into the system itself, it makes the system significantly more efficient.”
    Gammill estimates this can lead to situations where hundreds of specific API calls can be cut down to 10-15, potentially giving developers a bit of extra efficiency to play with.

    Significantly more efficient ! The full article can be read here:
    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/295800/Inside_the_next_Xbox_Project_Scorpio_and_its_brandnew_dev_kit.php

    I wonder is this some of AMD's secret sauce... maybe it this will be incorporated into the GPU Command Processor in Vega !

    Jay
    Reply to jaymc
  38. According to this article it's not a seperate Dx12 chip.. Direct3d is incorporated directly into the GPU Command Processor on in AMD's GPU on Xbox Scorpio...

    “We essentially moved Direct3D 12,” says Goossen. “We built that into the command processor of the GPU and what that means is that, for all the high frequency API invocations that the games do, they’ll all natively implemented in the logic of the command processor – and what this means is that our communication from the game to the GPU is super-efficient.”

    If AMD get's to do this with their future GPU's it could give them a serious leg up on Nvidia.. An we all know what a "Forward thinking company" AMD is.. They may struck a deal with MS on this... certainly looks it the way this article reads..

    https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/247266-microsofts-new-project-scorpio-xbox-blow-ps4-water-challenge-high-end-pcs

    It's already built into their GPU in the Scorpio weather they have to sole right to continue to do so remain's to be seen... In fact who's to say this isn't already baked into Vega ?
    Reply to jaymc
  39. jaymc said:
    According to this article it's not a seperate Dx12 chip.. Direct3d is incorporated directly into the GPU Command Processor on in AMD's GPU on Xbox Scorpio...

    “We essentially moved Direct3D 12,” says Goossen. “We built that into the command processor of the GPU and what that means is that, for all the high frequency API invocations that the games do, they’ll all natively implemented in the logic of the command processor – and what this means is that our communication from the game to the GPU is super-efficient.”

    If AMD get's to do this with their future GPU's it could give them a serious leg up on Nvidia.. An we all know what a "Forward thinking company" AMD is.. They may struck a deal with MS on this... certainly looks it the way this article reads..

    https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/247266-microsofts-new-project-scorpio-xbox-blow-ps4-water-challenge-high-end-pcs

    It's already built into their GPU in the Scorpio weather they have to sole right to continue to do so remain's to be seen... In fact who's to say this isn't already baked into Vega ?



    I could see this potentially being huge if AMD can incorporate it, and other API's into future GPU's. Now, that is a move in the right direction!
    Reply to goldstone77
  40. Big time !

    Microsoft Claims "CPU load is reduced by 50% (actually doesn't say up to) and thousands of instructions are now reduced down to just eleven."

    It's already baked into the GPU in the Xbox Scorpio, for all we know it could baked into Vega wishfull thinking I know IMO..

    This is huge..
    Reply to jaymc
  41. jaymc said:
    Big time !

    Microsoft Claims "CPU load is reduced by 50% (actually doesn't say up to) and thousands of instructions are now reduced down to just eleven."

    It's already baked into the GPU in the Xbox Scorpio, for all we know it could baked into Vega wishfull thinking I know IMO..

    This is huge..


    This is showing a real incorporation of directx12! The fact that this is happening inside a AMD 480 GPU is also huge. AMD could start doing this with more manufactures and API's.
    Reply to goldstone77
  42. AMD talks the future of VR: movement, wireless and better graphics:
    http://www.techradar.com/news/amd-talks-the-future-of-vr

    This is a great article about an exciting new wireless technology that is sure to bring VR to the next level of immersion.

    Roy Taylor agrees. “It’s very exciting, and the wireless technology can be very, very impactful in terms of the future of VR. We put up with wires today because we have to, in order to have the experience. But the wires are an issue in two ways; one is we are always conscious they are there, so some part of our mind is always going ‘don’t trip up,' or ‘don’t pull it out of the wall.' And that is the enemy of presence.”
    Reply to jaymc
  43. AMD’s Naples Looks to Make a Mark in the Data Center Market:

    "Intel’s Skylake-EP Xeon CPU has 32 cores and has countered Naples’s claimed performance advantages. While Skylake has equaled the core count, it lags behind Naples in terms of memory. Skylake has just six DDR4 memory channels per chip compared to Naples’s eight."

    http://marketrealist.com/2017/04/amds-naples-looks-to-make-a-mark-in-the-data-center-market/
    Reply to jaymc
  44. This is a very good video delves into some of the more "interesting features" in Vega.. but also touches on some features that appear to be designed to work closely with Zen (Ryzen & Naples).

    This YT states that where Zen is weak in AVX, Vega is strong.. I love that he picked up on this as it's very important...
    An with good reason, ya can see the puzzle start to come together here with regard to AMD's Server Solution that is.
    He goes onto say that this synergy may give AMD the ability to take advantage of a hardware "niche" in the HPC..
    I also believe that this is the kicker that will hopefully cause us to start hearing of design win's in the HPC for Naples & Vega..

    Also note at 25.05 how the Infinity Fabric connects the L2 cache on the GPU directly to the CPU an the PCI Express lanes, interesting..

    Vega & Zen together look like quite a team.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5EFbIhslKU&feature=youtu.be
    Reply to jaymc
  45. Great video, that guy definitely knows what he is talking about. Great speculation for Vega!
    Reply to goldstone77
  46. goldstone77 said:
    Great video, that guy definitely knows what he is talking about. Great speculation for Vega!


    Yes mate I thought so too.. The Infinity Fabric linking into Ryzen an the L2 cache on Vega is very interesting for sure. I wonder will this be taken advantage of in games.. Offload certain workloads to the CPU instead of the GPU. I'm sure it will be taken advantage of in the Data Center...

    Also the FP16 performance 25 Terraflops... that is just insane !
    Reply to jaymc
  47. jaymc said:
    goldstone77 said:
    Great video, that guy definitely knows what he is talking about. Great speculation for Vega!


    Yes mate I thought so too.. The Infinity Fabric linking into Ryzen an the L2 cache on Vega is very interesting for sure. I wonder will this be taken advantage of in games.. Offload certain workloads to the CPU instead of the GPU. I'm sure it will be taken advantage of in the Data Center...

    Also the FP16 performance 25 Terraflops... that is just insane !


    I think it would be the opposite send work to the GPU.
    Reply to goldstone77
  48. Why not just use PCI Express... ? It's hard to believe it's faster as it uses pci express lane anyway... There must be a some reason for this. Someone said it's similar to HSA design in an APU...
    Reply to jaymc
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