AMD RX 400 series (Polaris) MegaThread! FAQ & Resources - page 3

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  1. ^ power requirements yes , heat management - not so much , its been done before.
    Reply to madmatt30
  2. madmatt30 said:
    ^ power requirements yes , heat management - not so much , its been done before.


    Yes, with water, large heatsinks or throttling. Not exactly perfect solutions.
    Reply to Mousemonkey
  3. ^ nope, powercolor managed it on air with no throttling & temps below 80c with the devil 13 390x/390 cards.

    Bearing in mind the 480 has close to 100w less tdp as a single card then a little down clocking from full spec & with a well designed custom PCB I'd say its 100% possible to get a twin 8 pin solution out there that will manage fine with air cooling.
    Reply to madmatt30
  4. madmatt30 said:
    ^ nope, powercolor managed it on air with no throttling & temps below 80c with the devil 13 390x/390 cards.

    Bearing in mind the 480 has close to 100w less tdp as a single card then a little down clocking from full spec & with a well designed custom PCB I'd say its 100% possible to get a twin 8 pin solution out there that will manage fine with air cooling.


    I have to agree with a good air cooler I don't see how this is a bad idea. My RX 480 with the reference cooler sits fine at 81 degrees, I'm sure it would be quite a bit cooler with a good AiB setup, and the power requirements can easily be taken care of with 2 8 pin connectors.
    Reply to Rogue Leader
  5. i would think a 6 and 8 pin would be plenty. the way they made the reference card, even a single 8 pin is double the power offered to a single 480.
    Reply to Math Geek
  6. madmatt30 said:
    ^ nope, powercolor managed it on air with no throttling & temps below 80c with the devil 13 390x/390 cards.

    Bearing in mind the 480 has close to 100w less tdp as a single card then a little down clocking from full spec & with a well designed custom PCB I'd say its 100% possible to get a twin 8 pin solution out there that will manage fine with air cooling.


    Rogue Leader said:
    madmatt30 said:
    ^ nope, powercolor managed it on air with no throttling & temps below 80c with the devil 13 390x/390 cards.

    Bearing in mind the 480 has close to 100w less tdp as a single card then a little down clocking from full spec & with a well designed custom PCB I'd say its 100% possible to get a twin 8 pin solution out there that will manage fine with air cooling.


    I have to agree with a good air cooler I don't see how this is a bad idea. My RX 480 with the reference cooler sits fine at 81 degrees, I'm sure it would be quite a bit cooler with a good AiB setup, and the power requirements can easily be taken care of with 2 8 pin connectors.


    I never said it couldn't be cooled or that it's power requirement couldn't be met. The point was, why would they bother? A single more powerful GPU based card would be cheaper to produce and easier to sell to the masses.
    Reply to Mousemonkey
  7. Unless AMD has some breakthrough tech going on (or gets tons of game devs to suddenly support DX12 explicit multiadapter), a dual-GPU card will be subject to the usual caveats and probably not earn them that much money.

    Though producing two small GPUs is probably easier and cheaper than one big GPU, it's all downhill from there - more complicated PCB and cooling is one thing, but all the extra effort that has to go into the driver etc...
    Reply to Sakkura
  8. Is it really that complicated though from a technical standpoint to get 2 GPU cores running in tandem properly on a single PCB & sharing a single 8gb memory config without having to rely on automatic/integrated crossfire ? I ask this question seriously as I personally have no idea.

    If its been the plan right from the design stage then surely it is feasible??

    As far as I know its never been attempted from that aspect, the dual GPU setups in the past have always been an afterthought (& a fairly badly planned one)

    The 480 is the first SKU amd have designed that actually has a tdp capable of being paired on a single board without having plain silly power requirements.
    Reply to madmatt30
  9. One issue is that you'd be looking at power consumption numbers right up there between a 290x and a 295x2 on this chart, but performance matching cards down near the bottom third.

    Reply to 17seconds
  10. that assumes it doubles the power usage.

    1070 and 1080 sli testing i have seen shows less than 200% power usage. usually around 180% if i recall right. what did the 480 xfire tests show for power usage? somehow i doubt it was a complete doubling of the power. it's still a lot of power approaching 300w or more but if the price is right...

    remember no one cares about power usage unless it is an amd product. when the FE cards showed much higher usage than nvidia suggested, the first reaction was "who cares about power consumption!!" but all of a sudden here............
    Reply to Math Geek
  11. Math Geek said:
    that assumes it doubles the power usage.

    1070 and 1080 sli testing i have seen shows less than 200% power usage. usually around 180% if i recall right. what did the 480 xfire tests show for power usage? somehow i doubt it was a complete doubling of the power. it's still a lot of power approaching 300w or more but if the price is right...

    remember no one cares about power usage unless it is an amd product. when the FE cards showed much higher usage than nvidia suggested, the first reaction was "who cares about power consumption!!" but all of a sudden here............


    Actually some of us do care about power consumption, I don't recall posting anything about the FE's power consumption by way.
    Reply to Mousemonkey
  12. madmatt30 said:
    Is it really that complicated though from a technical standpoint to get 2 GPU cores running in tandem properly on a single PCB & sharing a single 8gb memory config without having to rely on automatic/integrated crossfire ? I ask this question seriously as I personally have no idea.

    If its been the plan right from the design stage then surely it is feasible??


    Maybe... but I have to wonder why it wouldn't have happened already, then.

    It is pretty infuriating that you can literally have thousands of shader cores on a chip working in parallel absolutely perfectly, but then getting two chips working in parallel is clunky, and 3-4 is downright bad.
    Reply to Sakkura
  13. The simple reason for not creating complex circuitry to make 2xGPUs work as 1 is cost, as usual.

    The necessary components to make the OS think it has 1 GPU instead of two, means they have to design a *third* component capable of managing 2 different pieces of silicon. It is the same idea as multicore CPUs nowadays. Why would you do 2S or 4S when you can just have 1S with twice the core count and leave all the associated deficiencies with it behind.

    For academic purposes, I do like the idea of AMD creating something *interesting*, but from the practical point of view (and business case, really), they are better of with a bigger chip. When they can't go bigger, then making a dual becomes something within reason to expect.

    Well, at least that is my take on this topic.

    Cheers!
    Reply to Yuka
  14. AMD has this Heterogenous System Architecture thing, supposed to let CPUs and GPUs share memory. Perhaps it could be applied to two GPUs sharing memory?
    Reply to Ags1
  15. Yuka said:
    The simple reason for not creating complex circuitry to make 2xGPUs work as 1 is cost, as usual.

    The necessary components to make the OS think it has 1 GPU instead of two, means they have to design a *third* component capable of managing 2 different pieces of silicon. It is the same idea as multicore CPUs nowadays. Why would you do 2S or 4S when you can just have 1S with twice the core count and leave all the associated deficiencies with it behind.

    For academic purposes, I do like the idea of AMD creating something *interesting*, but from the practical point of view (and business case, really), they are better of with a bigger chip. When they can't go bigger, then making a dual becomes something within reason to expect.

    Well, at least that is my take on this topic.

    Cheers!


    Indeed, but it would be fascinating to see if it could be done and done well. They could even use different configurations on each chip perhaps for more efficiency in performing tasks perhaps?
    Reply to Embra
  16. Ags1 said:
    AMD has this Heterogenous System Architecture thing, supposed to let CPUs and GPUs share memory. Perhaps it could be applied to two GPUs sharing memory?


    Sharing the memory is just a thing that helps with GPGPU tasks mainly. The CPU doesn't really need to access the GPU memory at any given time, from what I remember and the GPU only needs it when moving stuff across it's own buffer. And, even if it does help, it's just one part of the whole thing they need to develop.

    I do remember when the 4870X2 was launched and it sported it's own internal PCIe bridge. I was never used IIRC. Wasted money in R&D that could've gone to a better GPU or something.

    Anonymous said:
    Indeed, but it would be fascinating to see if it could be done and done well. They could even use different configurations on each chip perhaps for more efficiency in performing tasks perhaps?


    Well, if they still have space in the process node, I really don't see how putting an outside chip is *better* in terms of all the costs associated than just including it in the design (integrate it to the GPU). It's kind of the same deal with fixed pipelines. You could have them outside of the GPU, but why bother?

    Would you think nVidia would put a PPU (as they were called) alongside a GPU nowadays?

    And I really don't think they would be more efficient. Once you move stuff off-core (or off-GPU in this case) you will always incur in performance penalties. It *might* help with cooling, but that's about it...

    Cheers!
    Reply to Yuka
  17. There's also the whole thing about AMDs strategy to conquer the mainstream market. Marketing wise, they are not interested in a card competing at the high-end with minimal sales and reduced profit margins.

    Then there is the fact that their past few forays into dual GPU cards actually hurt them more than helped. The 6990 and 7990, and to a lesser extent the 295x2, were blatant advertisements for all that was bad about AMD: hot, power hungry, and noisy, with horrible frame-pacing to boot. It's taken them years to overcome the perceptions that came out of those reviews, a process that continues to the present.
    Reply to 17seconds
  18. saw this posted elsewhere in the comments below a new dx12 time spy test



    i don't care who you are, that's funny right there!!! :D
    Reply to Math Geek
  19. I saw that gif in WTFBBQTech comments section. That place might be a hell hole, but there is some very funny trolling from both sides.

    Cheers!
    Reply to Yuka
  20. Math Geek said:
    That's hilarious, Maths Geek! Lol! :-)


    Yuka said:
    That place might be a hell hole, but there is some very funny trolling from both sides.
    Yep, you got that right! :-)
    Reply to AndrewJacksonZA
  21. For those interested in seeing some numbers from the new DX12 Time Spy benchmark, here are PC World's results.

    http://www.pcworld.com/article/3095301/components-graphics/3dmark-time-spy-tested-we-pit-radeon-vs-geforce-in-this-major-new-dx12-benchmark.html



    Edit: This is interesting. They also have a comparison with Async Compute enabled and disabled.

    Reply to king3pj
  22. I'm pretty much an NVidia guy, but AMD has repeatedly shown that they are not scared of factory water cooling and that they can pull it off. How well a dual GPU card scales is an issue that, if solved, would, at the very least, open the conversation regarding, "What price is high performance worth?" For some, it's worth anything they have to pay. All a dual, x480 card has to do to be viable is beat dual x480 CF by a reasonable amount (20%?, 30%?) for the same or less money and I would consider it. With water cooling, one might be able to get a significant clock bump to go with it. What do you think?
    Reply to manleysteele
  23. manleysteele said:
    I'm pretty much an NVidia guy, but AMD has repeatedly shown that they are not scared of factory water cooling and that they can pull it off. How well a dual GPU card scales is an issue that, if solved, would, at the very least, open the conversation regarding, "What price is high performance worth?" For some, it's worth anything they have to pay. All a dual, x480 card has to do to be viable is beat dual x480 CF by a reasonable amount (20%?, 30%?) for the same or less money and I would consider it. With water cooling, one might be able to get a significant clock bump to go with it. What do you think?


    Have any of the AMD dual cards performed better than two standard cards in Crossfire? I thought I remembered reading that two R9 290x's in crossfire performed slightly better than a R9 295x2.
    Reply to king3pj
  24. king3pj said:
    manleysteele said:
    I'm pretty much an NVidia guy, but AMD has repeatedly shown that they are not scared of factory water cooling and that they can pull it off. How well a dual GPU card scales is an issue that, if solved, would, at the very least, open the conversation regarding, "What price is high performance worth?" For some, it's worth anything they have to pay. All a dual, x480 card has to do to be viable is beat dual x480 CF by a reasonable amount (20%?, 30%?) for the same or less money and I would consider it. With water cooling, one might be able to get a significant clock bump to go with it. What do you think?


    Have any of the AMD dual cards performed better than two standard cards in Crossfire? I thought I remembered reading that two R9 290x's in crossfire performed slightly better than a R9 295x2.


    To be frank, I don't know the answer to that, but, in my experience, technology is no respecter of history. I based my premise on the assumption that some smart engineers and programmers could advance the present state of the art in multi-GPU utilization that would enable better scaling on a dual GPU card. Pie in the eye thinking, I know, but I've seen stranger things happen.

    So, I started thinking, "This information is somewhere," so I went looking. In Tomb Raider, an R9 295X2 gives a frame rate of 166fps. Two R9 290X's in CF gives 145fps. In Medal of Honor-Warfighters an R9 295X2 gives 113fps and 2 way CF 290X's give 104fps. It carries along that way through all the games they share. No matter how good or bad the gains are from having a second 290X available, and some of them are barely any gains at all, the 295X2 out performed the 2way CF 290X in every case where they shared a game configuration..
    Reply to manleysteele
  25. manleysteele said:
    king3pj said:
    manleysteele said:
    I'm pretty much an NVidia guy, but AMD has repeatedly shown that they are not scared of factory water cooling and that they can pull it off. How well a dual GPU card scales is an issue that, if solved, would, at the very least, open the conversation regarding, "What price is high performance worth?" For some, it's worth anything they have to pay. All a dual, x480 card has to do to be viable is beat dual x480 CF by a reasonable amount (20%?, 30%?) for the same or less money and I would consider it. With water cooling, one might be able to get a significant clock bump to go with it. What do you think?


    Have any of the AMD dual cards performed better than two standard cards in Crossfire? I thought I remembered reading that two R9 290x's in crossfire performed slightly better than a R9 295x2.


    To be frank, I don't know the answer to that, but, in my experience, technology is no respecter of history. I based my premise on the assumption that some smart engineers and programmers could advance the present state of the art in multi-GPU utilization that would enable better scaling on a dual GPU card. Pie in the eye thinking, I know, but I've seen stranger things happen.


    I think it's highly unlikely that we'll see a card that performs better than a pair of base cards in x-fire.

    The advantage of a dual gpu single card is:
    - Space saving (should take up a similar amount of space / slots as any other single card)
    - Reduced power requirements
    - Potentially cheaper than two single cards as less duplication of components.

    At the end of the day, I think a dual Polaris 10 card could make sense if the cost is decent, although frame pacing and support in software is likely still an issue. To be viable imo it needs to significantly undercut the price of a performance competitive single card to compensate for the inherent issues involved with dual gpu cards.
    Reply to cdrkf
  26. here is a press release from asus about their 480 strix model. will be available in the middle of august!! http://videocardz.com/62280/asus-rog-announces-strix-radeon-rx-480-available-mid-august

    another month to wait is asking a lot. pretty pitiful really for custom cards to take this long after reference launch.
    Reply to Math Geek
  27. wow, I thought we waited long enough already.
    That's not really smart when the 1060 is right around the corner. Hope that other partners will get something out sooner.
    Reply to TehPenguin
  28. well I have to say that is really disappointing that some of the custom cards are that far off. I also have to say sorry for not being very on top of this thread, what else do you all want to see on this thread?
    Reply to Robert Cook
  29. Remember that ASUS is one of the companies that partners Intel, AMD and NVidia. Some the graphics card manufacturers who don't do NVidia or motherboards should have follow on cards before the ASUS Strix. Also remember, this is only one model of card from ASUS. There may be others that launch before the Strix, even from ASUS. We all live in interesting times.
    Reply to manleysteele
  30. I wonder if any of the AIB makers had 6 pin power designs ready to go, and decided to scrap them in favor of 8 pin for PR reasons. But if so, it would push release dates back. Not to mention raise costs. (Redesign and delay.)
    Reply to TMTOWTSAC
  31. there have been a ton of cards shown but nothing in stores. been a mix of 6-pin and 8-pin designs. i believe that zotac was the only one i saw with 2 connectors on it, but that may have been 1060 models i ma getting confused with. but i do know i have seen 6 and 8 pin cards teased for the 480 models.

    so many cards coming out and being teased it's been hard to keep em all straight in my head.
    Reply to Math Geek
  32. I wonder if AMD figured out a new way to make dual GPU cards work.. That is, *IF* they are really going to make dual polaris cards.
    I am not really interested if it still works just like SLI\CF but on a single PCB, because there are games when second chip just doesnt work, or even making it worse.
    Reply to El Bandito
  33. Well I think a lot of the 'new way' ideas are baked into the new api.... so it might work quite a bit better in new games. Also VR looks well suited to dual gpu given you have two discrete views, using a gpu for each makes a lot of sense. I think that might be where AMD would pitch a new dual gpu card (although that still requires VR developers to bake in support for gpu per eye).
    Reply to cdrkf
  34. I really wish AMD would release something with performance level of at least "between 1070 and 1080" this year, but i guess it's not happening untill vega comes out in 2017
    I am upgrading my rig specifically for 1440p and 144hz refresh rate, GTX 1080 costs too much and a monitor with freesynch will cost less than gsynch, add to that that we are right now having a trend of new games with modern API's working better on AMD cards... Well, lets just say i on hold with considering buying nvidia, but at the same time i am surprised with lack of information on AMD products.
    Reply to El Bandito
  35. El Bandito said:
    I really wish AMD would release something with performance level of at least "between 1070 and 1080" this year, but i guess it's not happening untill vega comes out in 2017
    I am upgrading my rig specifically for 1440p and 144hz refresh rate, GTX 1080 costs too much and a monitor with freesynch will cost less than gsynch, add to that that we are right now having a trend of new games with modern API's working better on AMD cards... Well, lets just say i on hold with considering buying nvidia, but at the same time i am surprised with lack of information on AMD products.


    In your situation, I'd look at a Fiji based part (i.e. a Fury / Fury X) and a freesync monitor. Given how fast the 1080 is the price on Fiji has come down quite a bit, and those cards can handle 1440p. They are in same performance bracket as the 1070 from what I've seen (especially in new api titles).
    Reply to cdrkf
  36. No i wouldnt go for older generation GPU.
    I am totally fine right now, as i can still play 1080p on my GTX970.
    That, and i will probably have to get a new PSU as well since furies are power hungry monsters %)
    Reply to El Bandito
  37. El Bandito said:
    I really wish AMD would release something with performance level of at least "between 1070 and 1080" this year, but i guess it's not happening untill vega comes out in 2017
    I am upgrading my rig specifically for 1440p and 144hz refresh rate, GTX 1080 costs too much and a monitor with freesynch will cost less than gsynch, add to that that we are right now having a trend of new games with modern API's working better on AMD cards... Well, lets just say i on hold with considering buying nvidia, but at the same time i am surprised with lack of information on AMD products.


    Based on the AMD roadmap infographic, I am not 100% sure Vega is a 2017 product. it looks to me just on or before the 2017 number meaning it may be out for Christmas. Its not a bad idea for AMD, I'll take one under my tree.....
    Reply to Rogue Leader
  38. Math Geek said:
    another month to wait is asking a lot. pretty pitiful really for custom cards to take this long after reference launch.
    +1!

    Talking about reference boards brings me back to my question that I asked very early on in this thread. Does anyone have any ideas on this? Is there an electronic engineer or two in the house?
    Anonymous said:
    A bit of a technical question: Since we're speaking about drivers affecting power consumption (and possibly reprogramming the on-board power management chip?) does anyone know how, since partner boards may or may not contain the same power management chip, AMD caters for each different AIB's power management chips? The power management chips all expose a common API, perhaps?
    Reply to AndrewJacksonZA
  39. Received this update from AMD today (Sunday nite over there):

    Guys its Reynod here from Toms Guide.
    When are the third-party RX480 boards getting released?
    Many thanks.

    AMD
    AMD Hey mate, We don't have an official release date just yet on those but we will update the page once we have a solid date.
    Reply to Reynod
  40. My summary of recent leaks is:
    RX490 coming this year leaked on AMDs site temporarily linked to a game promotion that expires at the end of the year, also leaked on Saphires website but with no info. Most are speculating a dual 480 maybe in a new non crossfire setup as noone is expecting HBM2 (vega) until next year, also a part no somewhere looked like it will be a dual card. Personally I think it could be early vega with DDR5 or even a dual 470 but dual 480 most likley.
    The 470 looks promising to offer amazing performance per $ though I don't think the price is confirmed yet.
    Reply to simon12
  41. Leaks are great ... and Charlie D and Fuad A usually pretty well on the money ... well at least some of the time ... and they are entertaining. There was that missing test rig lost in the boot of a car 10 years ago tho ...

    Frankly I think they must have relations working at AMD ... or the psychiatric ward next door.

    Here at Tom's I find it much more useful to wait until our benchtesters and benchtorturer (crashman) have thoroughly zapped, bleached, burned, benched and hammered any silicon first.

    Though ... a good rumour is still fascinating.

    :)
    Reply to Reynod
  42. overall with the lack of custom cards, firm dates and total lack of stock by nividia. this whole round of new cards is very unsatisfying to me.

    both sides have dropped the ball completely and decided paper launches and multiple months long hype trains was the way to go instead of just releasing the [radio edit] cards. i was not planning on a new build until the holidays but all this waiting for cards, reviews and everything else is starting to annoy me beyond what is reasonable.
    Reply to Math Geek
  43. Math Geek said:
    overall with the lack of custom cards, firm dates and total lack of stock by nividia. this whole round of new cards is very unsatisfying to me.

    both sides have dropped the ball completely and decided paper launches and multiple months long hype trains was the way to go instead of just releasing the [radio edit] cards. i was not planning on a new build until the holidays but all this waiting for cards, reviews and everything else is starting to annoy me beyond what is reasonable.


    Happy to hear I am not the only one feeling this way.
    Reply to TehPenguin
  44. Math Geek said:
    overall with the lack of custom cards, firm dates and total lack of stock by nividia. this whole round of new cards is very unsatisfying to me.

    both sides have dropped the ball completely and decided paper launches and multiple months long hype trains was the way to go instead of just releasing the [radio edit] cards. i was not planning on a new build until the holidays but all this waiting for cards, reviews and everything else is starting to annoy me beyond what is reasonable.


    +1

    It is getting a bit ridiculous now with all the delays. Either they are running into late redesigns or massive production issues...both are likely. I know HBM2 is what is holding up Vega and probably the 980ti and titan replacement. It's frustrating, but understandable, especially considering the problems even Intel has had with the process shrinks lately.
    Reply to Martell1977
  45. delays are understandable. but if you can't put it out until sept. then stop pretending it will be out in july, after announcing it in january and doing a big reveal event in march, the paper launch in may and so on.

    i think they do more harm to themselves than good like this. people are getting pissed that they can't find cards in stores when they read every day of a new card or version or release date for another gpu they know they can't get hands on for months.

    don't normally rant about it but this is getting silly to me. release it or don't. if it's not ready keep it under wraps until it is. or at least tell people when they can have one FOR REAL!!!
    Reply to Math Geek
  46. I think the teasers, paper launches and hype are for the shareholders more than consumers. If the company doesn't release products to meet certain timelines, the investors get nervous and the stock prices drop. I'm pretty sure most of the execs at Intel, nVidia and AMD all hold millions in stock and these "carrot on a stick" tactics keep the stock up or boost it a little.

    We consumers just get caught in the middle. To be honest, I have my 390 and it will likely be a few generations more until I update again...unless there is a massive jump in performance in my price range...around $300. (by massive I mean MASSIVE, the 1070 isn't compelling enough for me to upgrade.)

    I am also getting impatient for the mobile GPU's to come out. I have been looking at a ASUS laptop with a i5, SSD+7200rpm HDD, 8gb DDR4 and GTX 950, but I am waiting for the next gen to see what performance jump they make. Especially with the rumors that they might use full desktop GPU's in laptops because of the power effeciency finally caught up and is in acceptable ranges.
    Reply to Martell1977
  47. I can understand this against nVidia- but the AMD RX480 is out- I've just looked online and I can buy one easily in either 4gb or 8gb flavor? What am I missing here?
    Reply to cdrkf
  48. cdrkf said:
    I can understand this against nVidia- but the AMD RX480 is out- I've just looked online and I can buy one easily in either 4gb or 8gb flavor? What am I missing here?


    We are talking about launching a card with little to no stock, having hyped it for months ahead of time. Plus the lack of partner cards that always have superior cooling and thus superior overclocking.
    Reply to Martell1977
  49. From what I saw, in the UK at least, there were plenty of rx480 cards. Agreed it's a shame partner cards aren'tout yet but it's only been on the market for 3 weeks :p
    Reply to cdrkf
  50. cdrkf said:
    From what I saw, in the UK at least, there were plenty of rx480 cards. Agreed it's a shame partner cards aren'tout yet but it's only been on the market for 3 weeks :p


    Where? I am hunting it down, but I can't find it anywhere in stock XD

    After the first week, they disappeared! All the sites I normally use (amazon and ebuyer) list the 31st of July as a tentative date of re-supply.

    Cheers!
    Reply to Yuka
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